Nothin' matters and what if it did? ([info]mijopo) wrote,

When Torture is Necessary

There's an alarming article in the Northern Virginia Journal (http://www.jrnl.com/PDFs/nva/wednesday.pdf) this morning. Stephen Barlas, in an article entitled "When Torture Is Necessary", argues that government sanctioned torture in some cases is both justifiable and advisable. He argues that when many lives are at stake it's only reasonable to engage in torture if that act has a good chance of preventing the loss of life. (To look up the article I'm afraid one has to download the PDF, and then search on 'Barlas' or go to p. 13 of the document; also, the naming convention suggests that the pdf for today's paper won't last more than a week) I'm certain that this argument is the same one used by Israel and totalitarian regimes that Amnesty International (and the U.S.) have typically denounced as human rights abusers.

What kind of torture is justified according to Barlas? He argues that it has to go beyond this girly-man torture that they performed at Guantamano Bay. He writes, "The ACLU complained last week about torture used at Guantamano Bay, which included grabbing prisoners' genitals and bending back their fingers. Oh my! Worse than that happens every day in the pickup basketball game I play in" (he must play basketball at Ryker's or something.)  He goes on to suggest that anything short of murdering the person should be permissible if the threat is serious enough.

I'm alarmed because this is a fairly mainstream newspaper. Granted, it's no Washington Post or NYT but it's also not a Larouche pamphlet or Hare Krishna literature. I wonder if this opinion is finding wider acceptance among the punditry.

Barlas seems to be using a classic utilitarian argument for the legitimacy of torture. The basic (implicit) argument is that the negative utility of torture experienced by a small number of bad guys is swamped by the negative utility that would be generated in society if they aren't tortured; hence, when a bit of torture has a reasonable probability of saving a lot of people, then torture is okay.  Contrary to Barlas, I think this is just a  reductio ad absurdum of utilitarianism. In other words, if utilitarianism forces us to this conclusion than the basic premises of utilitarianism must be flawed. I suppose that a utilitarian might attempt to denounce government torture and still save the theory by arguing that when a person is tortured by government it generates a vast amount of negative utility because of the widespread fear and loathing that it generates towards the torture perpetrator. Hence, utilitarianism does not support government torture even in extreme cases in which performing torture might save a large number of people. But if one wants to save utilitarianism this way, then if we want to continue to embrace utilitarianism, aren't we still forced to accept the conclusion that torture is okay as long as it is kept secret?
Tags: ethics, politics, torture

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[info]mijopo

January 17 2005, 03:44:43 UTC 7 years ago

It appears that Tom Ridge is taking a position similar to Barlas's:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4175713.stm

[info]mijopo

January 17 2005, 22:37:16 UTC 7 years ago

response from article author

The author of the original article was kind enough to respond to the points that I made in the above blog. Here's what he said:

"Thanks. Very thoughtful blog. I don't know whether my column took a
'utilitarian' line or not. I'm not a philosopher. If guy A is about to chopoff my daughter's head (or murder 3500 in a skyscraper), and I know for a fact that guy B knows where guy A is, I'm going to stick guy B's head in a vise and turn the handle until snot or something worse comes out his nose. And I can guarantee you I ain't going to feel bad about it."

Anonymous

January 18 2005, 06:13:56 UTC 7 years ago

Hare Krishna and utilitarians

I am intrigued by your veiled suggestion that "Hare Krishna literature" might well envision the grabbing and squeezing of genitals, and other practices apparently common to both pickup basketball and death squad get-togethers. Really? I always thought of Krishnas as amiable, if occasionally noisy, street decor.

Anyway, I agree with you on utilitarianism. The problem for a utilitarian approach in these cases, imho, is not so much that one can't really condemn torture on its account, but that the theory makes it incomprehensible why this sort of thought experiments (because, let's face it, the situation where the torture victim is someone who in fact knows how to avoid the imminent death of a zillion innocents is rather a comfy scenario for the torture apologist: we are conceding a lot) should even be perceived as a problem. It seems to me that the conscience of the utilitarian should be, under the circumstances, perfectly clear. (Bernard Williams wrote some classic stuff on this, with similar cases.)

Ciao, pb.

Anonymous

January 18 2005, 06:16:13 UTC 7 years ago

Re: Hare Krishna and utilitarians

... and once again italics just took over after "perceived." How is that supposed to work? Bah...

[info]mijopo

January 18 2005, 14:00:07 UTC 7 years ago

Re: Hare Krishna and utilitarians

don't know, b., you're one ahead of me, I don't even know how to insert italics into a comment.

[info]mijopo

January 18 2005, 13:58:57 UTC 7 years ago

Re: Hare Krishna and utilitarians

Oh, my apologies to all the Hare Krishna and Larouchians that read this blog. I simply meant that the newspaper was a fairly mainstream publication reperesenting what one would anticipate to be views from within the mainstream and influencing those in the mainstream, as opposed to the Hare Krishna literature. I'm pretty sure they wouldn't advocate torture and the Larouchians would likely claim to have been tortured by evil government agents but would draw the line at advocating for it.

I should read what real utilitarians and ethicists have to say about this. I suppose that Peter Singer must have some sort of defense against arguments like this.

Anonymous

January 18 2005, 16:36:15 UTC 7 years ago

Help

What means ACLU? And why in the world don't you do something more useful with your life MJPOOL? Like stamping out pornography or something?

[info]mijopo

January 18 2005, 20:30:29 UTC 7 years ago

Re: Help

ACLU = American Civil Liberties Union.

(If I successfully stamped out pornography, then I'd have nothing else to do online but write LJ entries.)

Anonymous

January 18 2005, 21:07:33 UTC 7 years ago

THANKS

JACK in SWEATBERG thanks you for your efforts at both the stamping out of porn, and the advocacy of scuh illustrious organizations as the ACLU?
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